Official Luthiers Forum!

One last thing before I have to get stuff done. Looking at the neck from the side on any guitar you have the fret plane, this is your "zero degrees" and then you see the head stock "set-back" at an angle. Not sure what the set-back angle on a PRS is and it's not as much as say a Martin. But from the side you can see the head stock is leaning back from the neck plane. That's what a nut slot should do too to the level of degrees that we discussed. I just looked at my PRS on the wall in my studio and I would not be against cutting the nut slots at the same angle nearly as the head stock on a PRS.

Hesh nailed exactly what I meant.

I've never thought in terms of exact degrees, I simply follow the angle of the head stock with my nut file. The picture I have in my head when filing nut slots is that if the nut slot is completely flat, in line with the fret board, then the point of contact and pressure of the string in the slot could be anywhere within the slot (but likely at its exit point), leaving the width of the nut behind that exit point to interfere with our vibrating string. If I angle the nut slot down towards the tuning peg, I ensure that the point of contact between string and nut is fixed where I want it, the entrance to the nut, this ensures there is no interference on the speaking length of the string, it also means that the first fret will be in the right place (which is maybe a different can of worms).

I should mention as Hesh stated this is usually a nut problem, but can happen on the saddles too. Easy to figure out which it is though, if your buzz goes away when the string is fretted, it has to be the nut slot. If it doesn't go away then your buzz could be a worn flat spot on your saddle.

Hey Connor I hope that you are doing as well as can be expected in there weird times.

Yep right you are saddles can have the vibrating wave create the sitar sound too. On say g*bson tune-o-matic saddles we back file for this reason and then polish the slot to be sure it's demurred. Good catch my friend.

No buried strings in the slot are NOT an issue and this notion of 1/2 the string in the slot is BS and many players with their style can bend a sting right out of a 1/2 depth slot. You can reduce the nut material above the strings if you want but it's not necessary. When I make a nut, when we Ann Arbor Guitars make a nut and when many graduates from a well known Lutherie school make a nut we file the nut right down so the file hits the strings sacrificing a set of strings, the old set in the nut making process. This means that the slot is the full depth of the respective string(s).

But what's REALLY important here instead of the snake oil on the Internet about 1/2 height nuts slots is the set back angle of the nut slot that you file. The slot should be:

1) Slightly wider than the string AND one gauge up in strings so the player can go heavier with strings if they want. This means that the string will not be binding in the nut slot causing unresponsive tuning and then a jump on the tuner in pitch with a "tink" sound that can be heard.

2). This is the money activity the nut slot should have a set-back angel of at least 4 degrees. I like to go a bit more like 5 - 6 degrees or even 7. On acoustics we usually shoot for 1/2 the set back angle of the head stock (often around 14 degrees). On electrics not all headstocks are set back at all such as Fender. So make the slot that you file about 5 - 6 degrees or so. If it's flat you will get a sitar tone, the buzz that I think you've been chasing all along... A nut slot that does not have enough of a break angle or has a hump filed in it encourages the vibrating wave of the string to breach the nut face and buzz as the slot rises to touch the string. This sitar sound often sounds like it's coming from the bridge but it's a nut slot and a very common thing that happens when people don't understand how to file a but slot. There has to be enough of an angle to terminate the vibrating wave of the string or that wave travels into the slot. It often throws off the intonation for that string.

3). The link you provided does describe how we determine how low to cut the slot but they wussy out and don't encourage folks to take the slot lower and the benefits of same.

You said "I didn't cut the slots like this, but just flat and straight." Not sure if you are speaking of angling the slot direction toward the tuner post of if you are saying that there is no set back angle on your slots that they are flat. If the later is true that's your buzz, sitar sound and this is classic. Search on "set-back angles" if you are interested in more information but I provided all the money point here already.[/quote]

Very informative and to the point, as usual, thank you!
Luckily I haven't touched it again yet anyway!
Thanks for setting the record straight.
The angling of the nuts slots direction are NOT angled toward the tuner posts, but follow the initial pre-cut graphtech slots. But, there is no set back angle on the slots, they are more or less 'flat'.
When you mention degrees, are you assuming a 360% circle?
Does the bottom of each slot need to be 'round', or can the bottom of the slots be flat/square like the nut files profile?

many thanks![/quote]

Great now I feel like we are actually speaking "with" each other.

OK the nut slots are not angled toward the tuners and that's how PRS does it. When we speak of "set-back" angle for nut slots the fret plane is your zero degrees or baseline. So we want the nut slots to be cut at >4 degrees away from the fret plane or a "set-back" angle. Make sense. I like more than 4 and you have that now. Less than four can cause buzz and it's highly likely that the buzz you have on or had on an open string is because of a flat nut slot. They can wear that way too.

PRS uses a horrible plastic material on the SE's for nuts, the black crap. It parts like the sea for Moses for the fret file and then when you remove the file it did not actually cut but closes back up and pinches the string. It's one of my only beefs about PRS of which I own some too. I replaced my black SE nut on my PRS with black Ram's Horn which is not much better because it's very soft in my experience but it is black....

Yes the string should be laying in a nut slot that is perhaps .001" or so larger than the string on both sides and rounded like the string on the bottom. There are those here who will argue that a V shaped nut slot is good enough for them. They're right it is good enough for them but it's not good enough for me or my many clients. A V shaped nut slot will pinch a string, cause tuning instability and even breakage with aggressive benders and trem users.

So cut the slot "set-back" the degrees we suggested to you. I use dedicated nut slot files from Stew-Mac with rounded cutting surfaces that match the gauge of the individual stings. Be sure too that not only is there that set-back angle but when using the file you are not cutting the front of the slot as less angle than the back or creating a "hump" in the spot or that can result in the sitar sound too. When I was learning to cut nut slots properly I set a small block of wood on the peg head and positioned it so that when my file was in the but slot and touching the block of wood it was around 7 degrees. Training wheels if you will.

And yes a 360 degree circle if that helps you visualize what we speak of. The fret plane is zero.

So...... do this.... please

1). Set the relief and truss rod.

2). Cut the cut slots.

3). Set action at the 12th

4). Set intonation

5). Play every note and be aggressive looking for rattle.

Pat yourself on the back and enjoy a very well set-up PRS.[/quote]

******************************************************************************************

In 'freemans' epic setup thread: https://www.tdpri.com/threads/basic-setup.952636/page-2, he only briefly mentions the angle of the nut slots: "I try to make the slot parallel with the fretboard but roll off as the string exits the slot and I may open the back end of the slot to avoid binding."
@freeman

I attach image of my hosco files, they are not round, only a slight curve at best. Do I need to get something else please?

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

Stew Mac's nut files are fantastic and you know they'll do the job well. Your Hosco ones do look better than something v shaped though.

Some good news, angling the nut slots at this point shouldn't alter the string height at the 1st fret.

OK - it was time to "bite the bullet":

I got my hosco files and feeler gauges, then used the feeler gauges against the fretboard side of the nut and built up the height to the level of the nut slot on the 'G' string as a marker point!

I then took the file for the 'G' string and angled it to about 7 degrees and made around 48 backward passes of the file until I had the 'slope' to the leading edge of the nut.

I re-tuned all the strings to standard pitch and checked the fret gap at the 1st and 12th frets respectively, STILL GOOD! ~ Then I plucked the 'G' string several times firmly without deliberately 'over forcing' the plectrum against the string: THE RESULT?

No more buzz!

Now I am paranoid, I keep listening for things that aren't there anymore! (LOL). The sound of the 'G' string is a bit weird! As it rings 'on and on' it kind of phases in and out, in and out, in and out, over and over again? (sort of: why zee-why zee-why-zee effect) cycling round and round over and over again - "BUT!" ~ perhaps that is the natural nature of the string ringing healthily as it fades away?

Should I do all the other strings as well? (the same way)?

thanks to ALL! - great forum!

Can't believe such a little adjustment makes such a large difference to how the strings behave! Maybe 'freeman' could perhaps put more emphasis on the angle of the nut slots in his epic thread by pointing out the importance of this nut cutting angle? Rather than simply saying: "I try to make the slot parallel with the fretboard but roll off as the string exits the slot and I may open the back end of the slot to avoid binding." - https://www.tdpri.com/threads/basic-setup.952636/page-2 - just a suggestion to improve that excellent thread?

I.M.H.O. - I think this 'step' is essential/paramount & necessary. Without this, everything else that you do in the 'setup' process is absolutely wasted and should not be played down or over looked! Speaking from my own "learning from mistakes" process/experience! (LOL).

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

That's great that your issue is solved! Sleep on it and you'll likely notice less weirdness on that G string.

When I first started working on guitars (not that long ago), and even now sometimes I find its really easy to get sucked into a particular guitar and lose perspective. I found Freeman's advice to measure everything at the beginning and check your work against those numbers to be really helpful. I found it very reassuring to be able to measure everything on the other end of doing some set up work and be able to point to an objective difference. Having said that the more experience I get the less I use specific numbers and simply work with the guitar in my hands. The downside with numbers and measurements is that they can convince you to work towards a number that in reality can be an arbitrary destination for a specific guitar. They're incredibly helpful perimeters that define typical norms, but we can't be slaves to them.

The weirdness on the 'G' string was because the slot in the nut had a 'hump'/bump in the middle, which I have now smoothed out! Weirdness is eliminated now!

Cheers!

_________________
drugstoredir2014.com

Easy peasy to correct. Hunting it down takes awhile.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince